NAIOA.comNAIOA.comNAIOA.com
 Create an Account
 

  
NAIOA Impala Forums :: View topic - Cam & Rockers ???'s for the guru's.
GarageGarage    1/4 Mile Table1/4 Mile Table    Forum FAQForum FAQ    SearchSearch    UsergroupsUsergroups   MedalsMedals
MemberlistMemberlist   ProfileProfile    Watched TopicsWatched Topics    Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages    Log inLog in 

Cam & Rockers ???'s for the guru's.
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    NAIOA Impala Forums Forum Index -> 2000-2005 Engine, Exhaust and Transmission
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
jmakinen
Forum Regular
Forum Regular


Joined: Feb 24, 2011
Posts: 250
Posts per day: 0.1
Location: Negaunee, MI

2005 Chevrolet Impala


PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:45 pm    Post subject:  Cam & Rockers ???'s for the guru's. Reply with quote

I've been researching the benefits of each, and have a few things that I am unclear on, and was hoping to get some very good info for the benefit of everyone on NAIOA. Correct me if I'm wrong on these, and I will try to edit this top post to include the best answers, so it can be referenced quickly.

1. Q. Stage 3 cams usually involve valve spring replacement at 30,000 miles. Do stage 1 & 2 cams have this same problem?

Link to problem-http://www.naioa.com/v2/module.....mp;t=39279

A.He was using old comp cam springs, they are known to break. Find the right spring for your setup and you won't have problems. There are literally hundreds of springs out there that will work.


2. Q. Do you have to remove the balance shaft when installing every cam?

A. No. You don't have to remove the balance shaft, you can just disable it by removing the gear. You only need to disable it when you run a double roller timing set.

If you want to do it anyways, here's a how-to, along with further discussion of the pros/cons of disabling, and removing-http://www.3800pro.com/forum/c.....-tech.html

3. Q. How badly does removing the balance shaft affect engine longevity?

A. In the grand scheme of things, it has no effect.

4. Q. Roller rockers wear less on your valvetrain. If you already have a camshaft, does switching from stock 1.6 rockers to 1.6 roller rockers have any performance gain to be worth it?

A. Are you willing to dump $400+ on a set of rockers that will offer maybe a 5hp gain? That's what it comes down to. I can think of several ways to gain more for less than that. Safer on the valve train? Slightly, but lighter does not always equal safer (see my post about seeing these rockers fail), as I said, the stock valve train is more than sufficient for anything the average modder will do to these engines.

5. Q. Can't you buy a spacer for your cylinder head to allow an aggressive camshaft AND 1.9 roller rockers? The slight loss in compression should be worth more power, correct?

A. No. There is no gain by having rockers and a cam, it will more likely decrease power. There is no way (without serious head/valve/piston work) that you will run 1.9's and an aggressive cam without bending valves/pushrods. You are better off picking the right cam for your needs, if you don't like the options out there you can get a custom camshaft made for your mods for cheaper than a cam and rocker setup.

6. Q. Is there a stroker kit made in the U.S. that is available for the 3.8?

A. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd be hesitant to do anything to the bottom end of a 3800. They really don't take well to being taken apart/rebuilt. There is a reason most people go with low mileage L26 blocks when they do an all out build.

If you are interested though, here is the site for more info-http://www.3800stroked.com/

7. Q. What are the pros/cons of going with a double roller timing chain VS. single chain setup?

A.There is only one double roller that is "fit" for use in the 3800's, the rollmaster. The JP double roller is known for breaking after 10-20k miles. Running a double roller is not a plug and play thing. You need a machined oil pump cover to clear the chain (our you can half-ass it and double up the front cover gasket), you need to have the chamfer on the back of the crank gear machined to match the chamfer of the stock crank gear. You also need to make for damn sure both gears are operating in the same plain (lined up) so it doesn't break. You do those things and the double roller is no less reliable than the stock chain.

The stock chain requires you to pull the front cover every 15-20k miles to change the tensioner. You are also limited to what spring you can run.

The XP cam is the boarder to where the stock chain gets questionable, IMO anything XP and above requires a DR but there have been people who have run the XP on a stock chain with little issues (other than needing to pull the front cover every now and then).


8. What kind of upgraded transmission drive chains are available?

These are transmission drive chains, Your options are 1" GMR, 15/16", and 7/8". The GMR chain is no longer produced and is probably worth more than the car itself. The 15/16" chain blows, they snap and stretch, don't buy it. The 7/8" chain is still available and is your only option for an aftermarket drive chain. It's not as good as the GMR but it will handle most power levels that people who still drive their car on the street are putting down.


Please keep the posts informative, try not to whore the thread too much, and give the community some good information. I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to see these questions answered.


Last edited by jmakinen on Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:24 pm; edited 16 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nightryder
Master Level
Master Level
Silver Contributor (Amount: 1) Silver Contributor


Joined: Oct 18, 2006
Posts: 3256
Posts per day: 0.8
Location: Lockport NY

2001 Chevrolet Impala
2005 Subaru Impreza


PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:28 pm    Post subject:  Re: Cam & Rockers ???'s for the guru's. Reply with quote

First of all a cam in an N/A 3800 is not worth the gains.

jmakinen wrote:
.1. Stage 3 cams usually involve valve spring replacement at 30,000 miles. Do stage 1 & 2 cams have this same problem?


You shouldn't be using stock valve springs with a cam. There's a lot of factors in spring life, and replacement varies with each spring. With the right spring they should last the life of the car unless you are consistently revving it to red line.

Quote:
2. Do you have to remove the balance shaft when installing every cam?


No. You don't have to remove the balance shaft, you can just disable it by removing the gear. You only need to disable it when you run a double roller timing set.

Quote:
3. How badly does removing the balance shaft affect engine longevity?


In the grand scheme of things, it has no effect.

Quote:
4. Roller rockers are better for your cylinder head. If you already have a camshaft, does switching from stock 1.6 rockers to 1.6 roller rockers have any performance gain to be worth it?


Roller rockers have no effect on the cylinder head. They reduce friction between the valve stem on the rocker tip. Due to their design, roller rockers will reduce valve lift (less performance). For most 3800 applications switching to roller rockers is not worth the extra $3-400, it starts to get marginally worth it when you get into big cams and radical head work (I.E. custom rockers/valve spring setup).

Quote:
5. Can't you buy a spacer for your cylinder head to allow an aggressive camshaft AND 1.9 roller rockers? The slight loss in compression should be worth more power, correct?


No. There is no gain by having rockers and a cam, it will more likely decrease power. There is no way (without serious head/valve/piston work) that you will run 1.9's and an aggressive cam without bending valves/pushrods. You are better off picking the right cam for your needs, if you don't like the options out there you can get a custom camshaft made for your mods for cheaper than a cam and rocker setup.

_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
PushrodPower
Uberd0rk!
Uberd0rk!
Platinum Contributor (Amount: 1) Platinum Contributor


Joined: Nov 30, 2008
Posts: 6396
Posts per day: 1.95
Location: I love drawing butts on stuff.

2005 Chevrolet Impala
1996 Saturn S-Series


PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:57 pm    Post subject:  Re: Cam & Rockers ???'s for the guru's. Reply with quote

nightryder wrote:

You shouldn't be using stock valve springs with a cam. There's a lot of factors in spring life, and replacement varies with each spring. With the right spring they should last the life of the car unless you are consistently revving it to red line.


Is this true for any engine setup and cam?

_________________

"The skippers been drinking, oh yes he has you can tell."-Bob Ross
04ImpalaSS wrote:
How much miles are on those seats? How much pounds of ass were applied to the seat during every trip? Lol

wedebrook wrote:
This thread is about *this* far from being about me, all oiled up, eating chili mac in a walmart bathroom.

nightryder wrote:
My c**k broke.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nightryder
Master Level
Master Level
Silver Contributor (Amount: 1) Silver Contributor


Joined: Oct 18, 2006
Posts: 3256
Posts per day: 0.8
Location: Lockport NY

2001 Chevrolet Impala
2005 Subaru Impreza


PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:21 pm    Post subject:  Re: Cam & Rockers ???'s for the guru's. Reply with quote

PushrodPower wrote:
Is this true for any engine setup and cam?


The lifetime of springs? Yes. I imagine there are some stock springs in some engines that can handle a bigger cam, to a degree, but generally if you put an aggressive cam in an engine you should be upgrading springs along with it.

_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
jmakinen
Forum Regular
Forum Regular


Joined: Feb 24, 2011
Posts: 250
Posts per day: 0.1
Location: Negaunee, MI

2005 Chevrolet Impala


PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:30 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote

http://www.naioa.com/v2/module.....mp;t=39279
I understand that stock springs are not meant for cams. I should've explained a little better in original post. Quote below is from page 2 on this link, 3/4 of the way down, 130# springs.
Quote:
You guys shouldn't be that worried. the springs dieing were attributed towards the stage 3 camshaft and just time... I mean it sucks that i didn't know the springs "should be" replaced after a limited time. For example when i bought my camshaft, the vendor i bought it from let me know... After 12 to 15,000 miles the prc 660 lift springs would have to be replaced because of the high ramp rate the camshaft produces. If i had only known that with the stage 3 cam.


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Quote:
Roller rockers have no effect on the cylinder head. They reduce friction between the valve stem on the rocker tip. Due to their design, roller rockers will reduce valve lift (less performance). For most 3800 applications switching to roller rockers is not worth the extra $3-400, it starts to get marginally worth it when you get into big cams and radical head work (I.E. custom rockers/valve spring setup).


Once again, I should've explained a little more in depth. My understanding is because of the reduced friction, it creates less wear on the valve stem, which means a slight gain in performance (and I mean slight), and less wear on your valvetrain. So am I correct in concluding that 1.6 roller rockers with a camshaft will decrease valvetrain wear, but not really be worth any power gains?

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Quote:
No. There is no gain by having rockers and a cam, it will more likely decrease power. There is no way (without serious head/valve/piston work) that you will run 1.9's and an aggressive cam without bending valves/pushrods. You are better off picking the right cam for your needs, if you don't like the options out there you can get a custom camshaft made for your mods for cheaper than a cam and rocker setup.


http://www.naioa.com/v2/module.....p;start=15

Quote:
Rockers you get lift, but not the duration. So a) it's a little bit (and I mean little) better on mpgs. And it won't rattle my wife out of the car, whom I've justified all of my costs to. Laughing They run smoother.

***EDIT*** And consider this, if I decide to go intercooled with a lower pulley, I can just get the heads decked for a .650 lift, get a stage III cam, keep the 1.9s and I'll be right there. Twisted Evil

Page 2, 4th post, edited part. I saw this, and was wondering why wouldn't it work if it was mentioned? Is there something I missed?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nightryder
Master Level
Master Level
Silver Contributor (Amount: 1) Silver Contributor


Joined: Oct 18, 2006
Posts: 3256
Posts per day: 0.8
Location: Lockport NY

2001 Chevrolet Impala
2005 Subaru Impreza


PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:37 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote

jmakinen wrote:
http://www.naioa.com/v2/module.....mp;t=39279
I understand that stock springs are not meant for cams. I should've explained a little better in original post. Quote below is from page 2 on this link, 3/4 of the way down, 130# springs.


He was using old comp cam springs, they are known to break. Find the right spring for your setup and you won't have problems. There are literally hundreds of springs out there that will work.

Quote:
So am I correct in concluding that 1.6 roller rockers with a camshaft will decrease valvetrain wear, but not really be worth any power gains?


In theory, yes. But there is no problem with valve train wear on the stock setup. It's when you get into ridiculous cams and are revving to near red line on a daily basis that it becomes a problem.

I have seen 3-4 catastrophic failures of the YT and one failure of HS roller rockers, 0 failures from stock rockers.

Quote:
Page 2, 4th post, edited part. I saw this, and was wondering why wouldn't it work if it was mentioned? Is there something I missed?


I don't think the 1.9 YT offer any benefit over modded 1.9's, but to each their own. My car is no more rough after the cam then it was before the cam, these things can be corrected with tuning. If it wasn't for the exhaust note you would never know my car is cammed while riding in it, until I mash the gas and bounce your skull off the headrest.

I disagree with rockers offering better MPG's. I've seen 30+ MPG on the highway with my XP cam. It's all in the tuning and learning how to drive a cammed car without sucking down the gas.

There is a limit to how much lift you can get, most aggressive cams run near that limit. Adding 1.9's to that is like adding 30% more lift to that cam. It's not as simple as you guys think, you can't just throw rockers on a cammed car and call it a day. You have to consider push rod length. You will probably need longer valves as I don't think you'll have any luck finding a spring the is capable of handling that amount of lift and still maintain a 1.8" install height without binding. Longer valves mean aftermarket valve covers and rocker spacers, and depending on how high the rockers sit, you will probably need a more custom rocker setup. And then there's the issue of the valves hitting the piston, so you will need to measure and cut the pistons to clear the valve. Which means a full rebuild. Which means you will be spending more money on engine work than the car is worth, and drastically decreasing it's reliability at the same time.

Decking the heads reduces the amount of lift that you can achieve (it moves the valve face closer to the piston). So I don't know what he's thinking there. You machine the guides down so the retainers don't hit the guides.

_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
04DetroitLS
Senior Level
Senior Level


Joined: Aug 10, 2004
Posts: 2560
Posts per day: 0.53
Location: Detroit

2004 Chevrolet Impala


PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:30 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote

I have to disagree w/ Nyte on one thing... cam+rockers CAN be beneficial, but just not in this case..
rockers basically just change the lift by changing the ratio... you could go w/ 1.7s or 1.6s (if head work allows for clearance) but i dont think the cost to gain would be beneficial in an NA car...
The big benefit of the roller rockers (stock ratio v stock ratio) is the weight savings

_________________
wanderson75 wrote:
shagnwagon wrote:
Your car makes small children cry. Laughing


His dog ran away and didn't come back for a few hours on the first fire up too. It was awesome.

When babies cry and animals flee, you know you did something right Laughing


Signature truncated by system. Maximum of 6 lines allowed
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
nightryder
Master Level
Master Level
Silver Contributor (Amount: 1) Silver Contributor


Joined: Oct 18, 2006
Posts: 3256
Posts per day: 0.8
Location: Lockport NY

2001 Chevrolet Impala
2005 Subaru Impreza


PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:04 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote

04DetroitLS wrote:
rockers basically just change the lift by changing the ratio


But you can order a custom cam that has the lift you want with 1.6 rockers and wind up spending less for the same effect while maintaining reliability.

EDIT: Just to elaborate, lift and more power don't necessarily go hand in hand. Duration, lift, and LSA need to be modified together for the best gains (which is why I suggested a custom cam). There is a point at which more lift will start decreasing flow, that point depends mainly on valve size and the kind of head/intake/exhaust work you have done. On a stock head it's fairly pointless to do anything other than just throwing a mild cam or rockers on. Bigger cams will start out flowing a stockish engine, it's not just in the cylinder heads...you need to address flow from when it enters the engine until it leaves.

_________________


Last edited by nightryder on Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:53 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
jmakinen
Forum Regular
Forum Regular


Joined: Feb 24, 2011
Posts: 250
Posts per day: 0.1
Location: Negaunee, MI

2005 Chevrolet Impala


PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:44 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote

Okay, yes, I have an N/A car, but that isn't going to be the case forever guys...
Back on topic, I agree with 04DetroitLS on the weight savings. IIRC, less valvetrain weight=less strain on springs dealing with the weight=slightly quicker revs & some freed up power. I remember seeing in a lot of places that a lighter valvetrain also makes higher revving safer, because lighter=better. Anything I've missed? All the posts so far have been very informative, and if anyone else has a related rocker/spring question, now is the time!

EDIT- Just added a stroker question & link in the original post, for those that are interested. Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nightryder
Master Level
Master Level
Silver Contributor (Amount: 1) Silver Contributor


Joined: Oct 18, 2006
Posts: 3256
Posts per day: 0.8
Location: Lockport NY

2001 Chevrolet Impala
2005 Subaru Impreza


PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:41 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote

Are you willing to dump $400+ on a set of rockers that will offer maybe a 5hp gain? That's what it comes down to. I can think of several ways to gain more for less than that.

jmakinen wrote:
I remember seeing in a lot of places that a lighter valvetrain also makes higher revving safer, because lighter=better.


Safer on the valve train? Slightly, but lighter does not always equal safer (see my post about seeing these rockers fail), as I said, the stock valve train is more than sufficient for anything the average modder will do to these engines. You should be more concerned about how safe everything else is when you start revving high. There is no need to rev these engines ridiculously high, you get the most benefit setting your shift points at the peak of your power curve, anything beyond that offers no benefit. A rev limiter around 6300rpm is plenty and that's no problem for a stock valve train.

jmakinen wrote:
EDIT- Just added a stroker question & link in the original post, for those that are interested. Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil


This has been done before and it's entirely not worth the time/effort/money to do it

_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
IffyG
NAIOA Moderator
NAIOA Moderator
Silver Contributor (Amount: 1) Silver Contributor


Joined: May 19, 2007
Posts: 13731
Posts per day: 3.58
Location: Nashville, TN

2002 Chevrolet Monte Carlo
1998 Oldsmobile Intrigue
2009 Chevrolet Malibu


PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:05 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote

nightryder wrote:

jmakinen wrote:
EDIT- Just added a stroker question & link in the original post, for those that are interested. Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil


This has been done before and it's entirely not worth the time/effort/money to do it


Agreed. Also here is a link to the ZZP Stroker kit that was offered for a brief moment in time. Basically you spend a ton of money for gains that aren't that spectacular (unless you get your rocks off being the fastest N/A Impala on the road...).
http://zzperformance.com/grand.....php?id=230

jmakinen wrote:
Okay, yes, I have an N/A car, but that isn't going to be the case forever guys...


Given the track record of other members on this forum, you are still N/A and it will be assumed that you will stay N/A. Problem is a lot of new guys come in a talk a big game and never go through with anything. The fact that we only have a handful of members who have actually gone through the the top swap speaks volumes on the topic. Sorry if that rubs you the wrong way, but them be the facts.

_________________
helldorado wrote:
GLWTGFY. Big Thumbs Up

Dan wrote:
Protip: If you don't know what you're doing, don't do it.


d


Last edited by IffyG on Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:30 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jmakinen
Forum Regular
Forum Regular


Joined: Feb 24, 2011
Posts: 250
Posts per day: 0.1
Location: Negaunee, MI

2005 Chevrolet Impala


PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:23 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote

As for the stroker kit, there are 3 kits offered, 2 are for boosted applications. I would think that a stroker kit + supercharged/turbo'd would offer some pretty decent gains, but I'm guessing the reliability is what's being questioned. Correct me if I'm wrong.

And I can see the stance for not dropping $400 for 5 hp when already cammed, and possibly getting burned with less reliability. But I didn't know before, and that's why I asked. I'm sure I'm not the first to wonder these questions.

Quote:
Given the track record of other members on this forum, you are still N/A and it will be assumed that you will stay N/A. Problem is a lot of new guys come in a talk a big game and never go through with anything. The fact that we only have a handful of members who have actually gone through the the top swap speaks volumes on the topic. Sorry if that rubs you the wrong way, but them be the facts.


I can understand this stance too. I'm just waiting for funds Smile and yes, they will be coming.


EDIT- All questions have answers posted, question 4 re-phrased more clearly. Now only thing on the table is pros/cons of stroking i guess Very Happy


Last edited by jmakinen on Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:32 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
grimsin
Member Level
Member Level


Joined: Oct 27, 2009
Posts: 1179
Posts per day: 0.4
Location: Port Stanley ON

2005 Chevrolet Impala


PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:29 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote

pretty sure i got a top swap FOR FREE!(love my mechanic) trying not to get to excited yet cause i got to mae sure its mine AND i have to wait till spring to put it alltogether..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
IffyG
NAIOA Moderator
NAIOA Moderator
Silver Contributor (Amount: 1) Silver Contributor


Joined: May 19, 2007
Posts: 13731
Posts per day: 3.58
Location: Nashville, TN

2002 Chevrolet Monte Carlo
1998 Oldsmobile Intrigue
2009 Chevrolet Malibu


PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:32 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote

jmakinen wrote:
As for the stroker kit, there are 3 kits offered, 2 are for boosted applications. I would think that a stroker kit + supercharged/turbo'd would offer some pretty decent gains, but I'm guessing the reliability is what's being questioned. Correct me if I'm wrong.


I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd be hesitant to do anything to the bottom end of a 3800. They really don't take well to being taken apart/rebuilt. There is a reason most people go with low mileage L26 blocks when they do an all out build.

_________________
helldorado wrote:
GLWTGFY. Big Thumbs Up

Dan wrote:
Protip: If you don't know what you're doing, don't do it.


d
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jmakinen
Forum Regular
Forum Regular


Joined: Feb 24, 2011
Posts: 250
Posts per day: 0.1
Location: Negaunee, MI

2005 Chevrolet Impala


PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:37 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote

IffyG wrote:
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd be hesitant to do anything to the bottom end of a 3800. They really don't take well to being taken apart/rebuilt. There is a reason most people go with low mileage L26 blocks when they do an all out build.


Would it be safe to build mine at around 140,000 on it? '05's have the series III bottom (L26), and I'm thinking that as long as I don't screw the heads up, I can swap all parts to a lower mileage L26 when my bottom end blows. Top swapping I mean. My engine's still solid, doesn't burn oil, idles like a champ, and still feels snappy Smile .
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    NAIOA Impala Forums Forum Index -> 2000-2005 Engine, Exhaust and Transmission All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Forums ©
All logos and trademarks in this site are property of their respective owner. Comments and posts are property of the poster. All other content is © 2008 by the NAIOA.


Use of this site constitutes agreement with the NAIOA Terms of Service (TOS)


PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.
Server Local Time: November 22, 2017, 10:34:25 am
Page Generation: 0.14 Seconds ( SQL 45:143 in 0.01 Seconds )