wedebrook, I thought you were serious, until I remembered you weren't a Kanuk.
Personally, I don't know the entire story, so piecing it together, I really can't find the Lambo guy at fault. So what if he paid to fly said jerk-off to him to detail his car? He wasn't paying him to mess up the trim like that, and wouldn't expect anything less than a decent detailing. Even if there were some swirl marks, if he didn't damage his car, it wouldn't be as bad (then, you'd chalk it up as a rich guy blowing money foolishly).
I don't know why people think that crossing the border is such a big thing... the Lambo guy's lawyer is going to not only get the money back, but the damages will be fixed, as well. Wouldn't take a Johnnie Cochran to do that. Then, depending on the citizenship of the detailer, I’d try to f*** him in whatever country he calls home. If he got a Lambo, I’d waste the extra money for the principle.
_________________ "Life's tough, it's tougher if you're stupid."
Screwball, he's Canadian (from Toronto, an hour east of me)
From what I've read, he never claimed to be the Auto Detailer the Lambo owner was looking for, he simply offered his own services when the owner requested the Detailer's services.
While this douche from Toronto definitely screwed up on the detailing job, he's not entirely to blame.
The Lambo owner should have done a better job of knowing who he was soliciting for work on his car. Due diligence is your responsibility as a consumer.
Crossing the border and working illegally is a huge issue. Lost income for an American is one problem, and the lack of taxation on that income for the Canadian is another problem. Taxes on that $4,000 detailing bill would be around $1,300.
Paying 5k for a detail is robbery even if he did an excelent job... paying him that cash prior seeing the work is just retarded
Like my dad used to say... dumb asses with cash are still dumb asses
HotSauce6226 wrote:
Sure wish i know how to see pictures at work
X2
_________________ 2003 Impala - L26 engine, T61 Turbo, Intercooler, Plog, Elec water pump, much, much more.
1968 Impala - 327 engine, more to come soon
my response to this whole thing is that the guy got what he deserved. And this is why i say so:
Who in their right mind would spend that much money to bring in someone to clean a car? Get some sponge soap and wash. I just think that its crazy when people do stupid sh*t wasting unessesary money.
Secondly if your going to have someone come through like this and your paying that much for a service I would not let them touch my car without a contract being signed saying blah blah blah.
_________________
Next time you get pulled over and you know you have illegal tint Follow these instructions: Tie a string around your power window fuse, and after you roll down your drivers window yank the fuse, which will render your windows inoperable. They can't test the film if the meter can't fit over it.
This is my first post on this forum, I read the link back from the original thread that I had posted chronicling the detailer in question.
I think there is a general lack of education in the general consumer market on what true, high level, detailing is, hence the predictable comments
"Anybody who pays 4k for a detail is nuts, get a wash bucket"
or "Stupid rich guy spending his money." etc, etc, etc.
I think a fair comment would be, "I have done zero research into the work that was supposed to be done, so I am going to make a comment based on what I think may or may not be true and pass judgment," which is fair because at the end of the day my grandma wouldn't thinks its stupid that I would spend 1k on a set of headers for my Z06.
I want to clear up some myths regarding this situation and maybe provide a little bit of educational information.
The so called detailer who damaged the Lamborghini did use my reputation (by stating that work I have done was his) to con the owner into the detail. I had originally posted a thread on a Lamborghini forum for a member whose car I had detailed. The so called detailer (SCD from now on) sent out a mass email on that forum shortly after stating that he was world class detailer. He had washed and waxed a car similar to the one I had posted, so he eluded that people had seen his work on the Orange Lamborghini. Clever yes, truthful, maybe.
He drove down to Orlando and spent 9 days detailing this car, because he had to constantly fix mistakes that he inflicted. During this he called several detailers, including myself (even though I am in Orlando and the gentlemen with the Lamborghini originally wanted my service). The questions he asked where on par for most detailers who charge 200-300 for a service, they where not the questions that high level, high quality, and expensive detailer would ask (you have to earn your rate in this field) ask. The SCD was masquerading as somebody he wasn't, and to me this is a con-job.
Now on various forums and various circles (I have clients from as far away as South Africa, as well as West Canada, California, Nevada, New York, etc) for extremely high end work on extremely rare and ridiculously expensive cars. I have done work at the OEM level testing polishing for factories, beta work for Meguairs, Lake Country and several other huge car care companies that I cannot disclose. I have detailed 18 million dollar cars that have one the most prestigious car show awards in the nation. I am not trying toot my own horn, but rather qualify myself as somebody who is not at the local corner shop detailing cars.
I charge a rate of 80/hr, and all the work I do is billed by the hour. This is the cost of having a qualified expert detail your vehicle. Obviously very few people have such high standards that such work is very niche. The level of work I do is not for everybody and thats cool.
However I have earned a reputation (that was misused/stolen in this con job) that allows me some freedom. Most of my clients tell me there expectations, hand me the keys, and I get to work. Pricing is very rarely discussed until the end. My clients understand that doing the job correctly takes time, and they are paying a large amount per hour. It is a luxury service, akin to certain people spending large amounts at a hair boutique to have so and so style their hair that maybe 2% of the people would notice. I get my hair cut at great clips personally, because that doesn't having perfect hair doesn't appeal to me, and I happy with the work done. That said, I don't knock people that spend crazy amounts on a hair cut, its just not for me.
With the rate I charge there is an expected level of efficiency. If I have to redo work, I am not going to charge a client. I also have put in the hours and have the experience where I am not going to make stupid mistakes or learn on the job.
The problem is that the detailer in question spent one day wet sanding the paint with the incorrect sand paper, spent another day realizing that he screwed up when he couldn't buff out the marks, spent the third day re sanding with the correct paper, then a fourth day buffing out the sanding marks. Then he spent another day trying to remove the buffing marks but didn't have the correct products to do so, and it goes on and on. So not only did the SCD charge to learn on the job (which used my reputation to do so) but he charged the rate of an expert!!!!
So at the end of the detail he spend about 6 times too much time on the work and still didn't get it right. However using my reputation he convinced the guy this is the type of work that everybody was happy with.
For the level of work done and the results delivered, it would have likely taken me 12-15 hours or 960 to 1200 dollars. This is the cost to have the clear coat milled down and re-leveled, only I would have also done the interior for this cost, not broken anything, and had a happy customer.
I have done work that I charged 3-4k for but this isn't really detailing as it is a boutique mini restoration.
Case in point one, here is a Ferrari Boxer BB. The owner was going to pay 15k-20k for a quality repaint (which would have hurt the value of the car) and even more for additional restoration work. After I was done detailing this car, the original paint Ferrari one best in show, best paint, and people's choice at a prestigious Ferrari show in Indianapolis. So 3-4k is a lot to pay for a detail, but is it a lot to pay when it saves 20k in costs, and increases the value of the car 10-15k (the original paint was resurfaced and restored to a level higher then factory standard, yet was still original).
Two of the cars the F430's, received services similar to the damaged Lamborghini's, only the cost never exceeded 1.3k on them. The Black Ferrari Boxer required much more intensive work, and was around 2k, but again the increase in price vs. having the car repainted makes this a bargain, IMO.
Here is the full boutique detail I did on an orange Gallardo that started the entire situation (that the SCD claimed was the work he did through slight of hand)
I just wanted to show there is a whole level of detailing that is far more then soap and a sponge (which is probably scratching and damaging your paint) or a simple buff job using glazes and oils.
I can understand that there are high-priced versions of everything out there. I just can't imagine paying so much money out without doing some research first.
FYI, you have a dead image link in the Lambo thread.
THelme your post justifies the comments that where made... you said for 3-4k work is more of a restoration then a true detail like what was stated in the original post
Personally I don’t feel a lambo or similar isn’t worth $80 an hour for 15 hrs. Even if one has an original price tag of the cars was 200k. A detail is... well just a detail. Marking up the 800% because you do a good job is just like hiring Johnny cokren as the lawyer to your misdemeanor charge. People do it because they have the cash and the lawyer has the reputation...not because the service can’t be done with the same or better quality by some one with in there state for less
And anyway... to hire some one and not research them when spending any amount of money and not securing information about the person/agency/business put you in a situation where you are at a potential for a loss of the investment and capital. doing it to an individual who you are paying grand’s to work of on 200k capital with out even getting a copy of there licenses is just wasteful
_________________ 2003 Impala - L26 engine, T61 Turbo, Intercooler, Plog, Elec water pump, much, much more.
1968 Impala - 327 engine, more to come soon
THelme your post justifies the comments that where made... you said for 3-4k work is more of a restoration then a true detail like what was stated in the original post
Personally I don’t feel a lambo or similar isn’t worth $80 an hour for 15 hrs. Even if one has an original price tag of the cars was 200k. A detail is... well just a detail. Marking up the 800% because you do a good job is just like hiring Johnny cokren as the lawyer to your misdemeanor charge. People do it because they have the cash and the lawyer has the reputation...not because the service can’t be done with the same or better quality by some one with in there state for less
And anyway... to hire some one and not research them when spending any amount of money and not securg information about the person/agency/business put you in a situation where you are at a potential for a loss of the investment and capital. doing it to an individual who you are paying grand’s to work of on 200k capital with out even getting a copy of there licenses is just wasteful
I agree that paying somebody worth $80.00 an hour for 15 hours isn't for you, but the what would you compare that to?
Paying a guy 75 bucks to physically damage the paint?
Although it gets slightly redundant, I will give a brief lesson on paint, gloss, and reflectivity (I'm going far beyond putting on a coat of wax and calling something detailed).
If you where to examine 99% of new cars in dealerships you would find that they are heavily scratched. I would apply this number to new paint jobs and cars rolling out of the factory that are wiped down or cleaned at the factory.
If these scratches are large enough they will be visible in the form of swirl marks or spider webbing.
So what do these scratches have to do with anything? The amount of light reflection is ultimately dependent on the amount of light reflected directly. The microscopic scratches (and macroscopic swirl marks) cause the light to refract vs. reflect. The refracted light (loss of the gloss) means that even when you see a brand new car and admire its shine, you likely have not seen a vehicle at its fullest potential.
So how are these swirl marks (and microscopic scratching) caused? Improper washing techniques and drying techniques are the number one cause. Anytime that any object (dirt, grime, dust, pollen, road grit, nylon backing on cotton towels, etc,etc) that is harder then paint at the point of contact passes over the paint with any type of pressure it will mar the surface. The truth is to properly wash your paint requires patience, the correct chemicals, microfiber towels, grit guards, buckets, water supply, etc, etc, and we are talking just the process of removing dust with out causing micro scratching.
Most owners with a mitt, a bucket, and a bath towel are destroying the paint's finish by constantly abrading the paint over and over. The in the search of more shine they apply the latest waxes, they will apply the latest infomercial wax or the newest, craziest bottled wax at Autozone.
In fact these consumer waxes work very well at their intended job. By using oils, waxes, and levelers such as kaolin clay, consumer brand waxes work well at temporarily amping up shine by creating a false, flat surface. Take an old black car that is scratches so pad it has a silver shine, and is faded so bad it looks gray, and run water over the surface. As the water floods over the paint and the surface takes on a dark, deep, black shine. Then the water runs off and the paint looks terrible again. This is similar to how consumer waxes work, when they wear off there is a noticeable loss in surface gloss.
The same principles applying for the polishing techniques used by most body shops and detail shops when they buff a car. To create a truly perfect finish is very time consumer, requires special lighting, microscopes, etc, and lots of rubbing alcohol. This is because the polishes used to buff the paint usually have a some level of silicone or oil based filler. Many times the body shops and detailers have no idea because they wipe off the residue, the paint looks good, and this is what the rep has told them to do. However a bottle of rubbing alcohol or prep-sol (on cured paint) and a wipe down would often reveal significant levels of surface damage (caused by the polishing process) that is being filled by the residual buffer residue.
The avoid the scratching in the first place requires specific washing techniques (the type only a highly paid professional or the owner himself would be willing to do).
To remove the scratching means using an expert to polish the paint to true, unbelievable gloss. When you thrown the factors such as paint type, pad type, weather, and about 1000 other factors, it takes somebody who has enough experience with a variety of polishes, machines, and pads. It is not a generic process that a detailer charging 200 bucks it going to apply. It is an art forum.
If you had 200k car and and don't think spending an additional 1.2k on the paint to ensure that it is at its best, and looks much better then any other new Lambo, and reflects like a crisp mirror, then fine. However most exotic owners, show car owners, and special interest owners do find that it is worth the extra money. If there was a factory option for an additional 1.5k dollars worth of paint work that would insure a much better reflection and the look of a show car paint job, most owners of cars would click it. So people would be 'responsible' and check no, its not worth it.
At the end of the day you read my post and say I am full of crap and that the awards cars I have prepared are false, or my clients opinion just rich people being dumb, or my reputation isn't deserved, or the money I have been paid by some car manufactures and polish manufactures was stupid, or you could look at this thread as educational. I understand that if you don't agree with the premis of the work or it doesn't appeal to you, but it doesn't make it wrong, and certainately doesn't make you right. That is what is awesome about opinions, we all have them, and by definition they are not facts. Maybe I just like to talk about stuff I know, so sorry for the long winded explanation.
As far the Lambo owner's decision, he learned his lesson, although expensively. BUT he was conned by somebody who misrepresented himself. But do you blame the victim and chide him, or should you blame the con artist? I think the blame will always lie with the pathetic excuse of a human who doesn't have the decency to be an honest faithful person. Maybe I see things in black in white, but it isn't the fault of the person who gets killed or the woman who gets rapped, nor the person who gets conned. Just my opinion.
To illustrate my points about polishing, etc, here are some pictures from one of the threads I linked.
Here is a new F430 in direct sunlight. You can see the scratches on the paint, imagine the microscopic scratches you cannot see. Believe it or not this is actually pretty good for a new car, and significantly better then most new black cars on any lot. I was impressed with the factory finish, however it car from the best it could be (99% of people would be happy with this finish).
Here is the a 50/50 shot of paint being corrected.
And here are the after photos. No trick photography, this is the actual shine of the paint. The car looks like a mirror or it has a million dollar paint job, many of my clients would say the difference is surreal. You could argue that a 200k car should have perfect paint from the factory, but if they paid for experts to handle the cars at the factory, dealership, etc the 200k car would be a 205k car to keep margins (paying 100's of employees 800% more money).
You make some good points but who really cares what their paint looks like under specialized lighting? Human perception won't pick up microscopic scratches on a brand new car, or any car for that matter.
You make some good points but who really cares what their paint looks like under specialized lighting? Human perception won't pick up microscopic scratches on a brand new car, or any car for that matter.
His whole point is that you're not the 99th percentile here.
Most people are happy with factory paint quality, but having a car detailed by a true professional can yield better results, which makes a car even more reflective and shiny.
For example. My Impala is silver. Most people think it's clean all the time. But right after I wash and wax it, I'll get the odd "wow that car is clean".
I don't see it as being a waste of money - if you have a car worth the investment.
You make some good points but who really cares what their paint looks like under specialized lighting? Human perception won't pick up microscopic scratches on a brand new car, or any car for that matter.
His whole point is that you're not the 99th percentile here.
Most people are happy with factory paint quality, but having a car detailed by a true professional can yield better results, which makes a car even more reflective and shiny.
I don't see it as being a waste of money - if you have a car worth the investment.
You say I'm part of the one percent yet you contradict yourself by saying most people are happy with the factory paint.
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This is why I trust no one with my car.
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